David Lascelles (DL): So David, welcome.

David Harewood (DH): Thank you for having me.

DL: And thank you so much for being part of this Missing Portraits project.

You’ve made a very, very successful career as an actor, but you’ve also been a very vocal and articulate campaigner for mental health issues, particularly around black men.

And that has grown out of your own experience as a young man. Can you talk about that a little bit?

DH: Yeah. I had a psychotic breakdown, about 30 years ago, and sort of had the experience, then sort of buried it. I would never have thought, I would revisit that.

It was World Mental Health Day, in about 2017, and a friend of mine knows I’m, you know, interested in the subject of mental health. And she said, you should send a tweet out, you know, just to acknowledge of World Mental Health Day

So I, I don’t know why I did it. It’s probably a case of oversharing.

I sat down and I tweeted: As somebody who’s had a breakdown, I just want to say, get some help if you can, look after yourself today and you know there is a way back. You know, my career is proof that, you know, you can come back. Get some help if you can, and take care of yourself today.

I remember because I was flying to America that afternoon to resume filming, so I kind of turned my phone off, flew to America, when I turned my phone back on when I got to the other side, I got like 50,000 retweets!

DL: Wow!

I sense again from reading your book, that one of the things behind the breakdown was about identity. Who am I? A Black man in a White world. You talk about that very clearly and very movingly in your book.

DH: Yeah, somebody was saying to me the other day in, you know, Where did that Rocky identity… where, where, what are its roots? And, you know, you think about it from five years old and you’ll continually being told to go back to where you came from.

It’s, you know, mentally I think that was… already I was sort of thinking, well, I just didn’t understand that.

DL: I come from the next door street.

DH: Exactly – so I can always remember as a kid thinking, you know, when they, when people would say that to me, just not understanding.

It was first, you know, said to me very violently by, you know, an older white guy who just told me to get the f*ck out of his country. And that was really powerful, because as a kid, I was, I didn’t understand what he meant.

And it was the first time somebody had actually racially abused me in that way.

I didn’t even have a confidence to tell my parents. I was just sort of embarrassed and just I didn’t know what to do with that.

You know, I’ve just done this documentary on Blackface and going up in the 1960s and 1970s when the Black and White Minstrel’s Show was on TV. Growing up as a kid watching that, I was thinking that’s wrong.

I knew it was wrong, but I couldn’t articulate it. So there were no positive images of Black people, there was very rarely any Black people’s faces on television. So I really did grow up in this sort of White space of trying to formulate a strong, confident self-image, I think it was really difficult for me.

DL: So obviously you’re called David Harewood. This place, where we are now, is Harewood. And how did discovering that connection, has that been part of that journey?

DH: It’s become part of the journey, and it’s still actively part of my journey, you know, I worked at West Yorkshire Playhouse many years ago, and just noticed a sign for Harewood House and just thought randomly that oh, that’s a coincidence, It’s the same name as me, not knowing, at all, the connection.

And then again through making documentaries, discovering that actually it was the reason why my name is Harewood.

I was actually given my family tree which was a very powerful moment, and emotional moment, when you can see your dad’s, dad’s, dad was born a slave. That’s three generations.

My great, great, Great Grandfather was was born on the Harewood Plantation in Barbados.

And that was really powerful to sort of, I could reach, I could reach it, I can kind ofreach back to slaver y and that’s where the name Harewood came in.

I think it’s Nathaniel Harewood, and then Richard Harewood was the first free Harewood.

And that there was Nathaniel Harewood, then Benjamin Harewood, and then Romeo Harewood, which was my dad – and that’s my connection.

So that was a very powerful moment, and a very emotional one. But that’s where the name came through.

So it’s really, this is a very recent thing for me to be, to be wrestling with. And I think I’m very fortunate actually, that you yourself have been so accommodating.

I’m very fortunate that you are as open as you are, because, I think that takes away a lot of the, sort of, you know..If you were to have been the other way, that it could, it could have been very confusing to me. Very, I guess, I could have had a lot of baggage, you know, emotional, maybe even anger.

But the way that you’ve been very open has forced me to, sort of, reckon with it, maybe even wrestle with it, in a slightly different way. And that’s why, I think, I value this, and I think it’s such an amazing thing, what you’re doing – is because, also because it’s based in art which I think is great.

And it’s, it’s, you’re putting something into action. You’re not just… You’re walking the walk at the same time. You are walking the walk and you’re putting yout money where your mouth is and that’s, I can only come at that with positivity…As an artist myself, I can only come at that with positivity. There is no way you can be, sort of, lobbing stones from the sidelines.

DL: Well Diane, is an Artist. I was a Film Producer, as you know.

So that, about engaging with people creatively, and telling good stories, that’s, for me, the name of the game, you know, if you do that well, all sorts of interesting things grow out of that.

DH: But that’s what’s so interesting about this project and, you know, as I said to you, it’s really difficult to explain it but, just even seeing ‘Earl of Harewood’ or the name Harewood on a door, or the name Harewood on a sign – it’s such an odd thing to me. It’s, it’s really putting it in my face – but I’m getting better at coping with or dealing with it. But it has been unsettling, and there’s a conversation going on in my head that I, that I do wrestle with when I see that name.

DL: Yeah, yeah.

DH: Which is what makes this exhibition so extraordinary, because to then see a successful Black Harewood – that’s gonna be something! To come to the house and then go oh there’s the Earl of Harewood and there’s David Harewood!

DL: Well, that’s exactly the point that they should – that they are all part of that story.

DH: Yeah, absolutely – all part of the same story.

DL: So, here is this place – this great edifice to 18th century wealth and success, a magnificent building full of magnificent things – and it’s really a question of what, what do you do with that?

Here we are now with that. What what happened to that? And that’s what we’ve tried to do with this, and other projects.

DH: But that’s why I think it’s so important David because rather than just, you know, some people would say “board it up”, you know, “shut it down”, “burn it down”, you know, “it should never be open to the public”, you could have that discussion.

And there’s people burning books in America, there’s people… there’s no point in sort of trying to, sort of, ignore history – or there’s no point in trying to cover it up. We know this, we know the truth of it, but how do we reclaim that?

How do we change the dialogue? How do we… how do we embrace it? We’ve got to do something positive with it and I think even though it’s been a very, as you say, an awful…there’s been awful things that have been done in the past, I think we have to embrace that story and try and find a way forward where we can start talking about sharing, sharing…becuase we are all part of that same story you know.

I think this exhibition, seeing my name, seeing them a Black face on these walls in this house will make people stop and go “well, what’s that about?” and then they’ll read it and they’ll engage with it and they’ll know that, you know, we’re just trying to change the dialogue around and trying to change the themes around that.

I wonder what the reaction will be.

DL: What, to the exhibition?

DH: Yeah, well, I wonder…What have people said?

DL: The reaction to the one that’s on at the moment, the Arthur France exhibition has been very good. We’ve had a really good response and when I’ve kind of lurked in the room, sort of to see what people are doing. They spend a long time in there. They go and look at all the stuff, they’ve got the little leaflet saying what’s what and and they look at all that. It’s been a very good response.

So there was a crafstman named Mac Collins, a young young black guy, rising star in that world, and he’d made for the exhibition a domino table, a very stark, modern black domino table. Which we put in a room…in one of the rooms here, where there were old 18th century style gaming tables with green felt on and little shapes to put you chips in and so on. And it was in that room, right in front of the portrait of Edwin, who built the house. And there’s a wonderful image, Dianna grabbed the two of them by the scruff of the neck, Mac and Arthus, and said “play dominoes” now. And they did! There was a nervous moment where we thought “does Mac actually know how to play dominos?” but he did! He did. And there are some wonderful images of the two of them, sat in front of Edwin, playing dominoes – and two black men from very different generations.

Mac’s probably old enough to be Arthur’s grandson, almost yeah!

DH: But I think, that’s again, that’s how you’re recreating, rebirthing, remaking the story. I think that’s, I think that’s really fantastic – using photography, using art, I think that’s really great.

DL: You’ve talked a lot about your portrait, when that’s done… we haven’t actually done it yet… What’s your feeling about that? What are you hoping to see?

DH: That’s really interesting because, I had a conversation with my kids, maybe about a year ago, about the name Harewood, and how I was feeling about. I think it was in light of Black Lives Matter, and kind of said to them, you know, if they wanted to change it, or you know wondering whether if I should have changed it, or whether, you know, having this debate whether it’s something I should have done years ago and kind of wrestling with that.

So I think, I think, you know, generally feeling a lot more comfortable about it – so I think with this picture tomorrow, it’s just a case of owning, owning the name, owning myself. And I think that picture’s got the represent a sort of ownership of this new story being…You know, you’ve got all these other Harewoods, got so many other Harewoods in this house, I will be the only Black Harewood. And I think there’s something really powerful about that. Ao I think that it’s to  establish strength, resilience…I’d like to think of resilience when I see that. And for it to sort of be a hopeful message of how you can overcome and succeed.

Ashley Karrell: It was an honour, once again, to be chosen by David and Diane for this missing portrait featuring David Harewood. I thought there was something really beautiful about this experience, the second time around, after the Arthur France portrait.

This time around I got quite emotional because I felt that we were creating history and starting to re-address history, rewrite history and create new art that actually has some legacy to do with the present, but also acknowledging the past.

I think David’s history and David’s historical story and his triumph as an actor, documentary maker and mental health advocate has been something that really resonates with me, and  in the things that I’m very much interested in.

The most proudest moment of it all is the idea that our ancestors will be proud. Our ancestors are the people that survived and thrived and I’m really grateful to be involved.

Thank you so much to everyone involved and I hope you enjoy the exhibition, and the portrait.

Thank you.